S2 Episode 42: Talk Nerdy to Me: Emotional Intelligence Redux- Your Secret Weapon to Showing Up

Note: Transcripts are computer generated

Narrator 00:00
Sugar and Spikes is a science backed and semi sarcastic mental health podcast for a new type of business leader. Mental health concerns are occasionally addressed. But this podcast is not intended to diagnose or treat any condition, mental, physical, metaphysical, or otherwise, that's a job for your doctor or therapist, not a podcast. Now that we've got that out of the way, let's get on with the show.

Dez 00:42
I was working on the book, and there was that GPS like skill sheet. Yeah. And...

Tammy 00:49
I totally forgot about that.

Dez 00:50
I know, but we have like so much good stuff. And that idea. Like you were saying, Go back to the original idea. And then I was like, Yeah, yeah, but our branding was off. And now we have like, the brand voice and this idea of what the brand is, and the confidence to not feel like we have to, like, mold ourselves. Because actually, it was very much like, we have to appeal to like, corporate things, look professional and all the things, we're not all the things and now it's like, let's take these ideas and these skills, and do them how we would actually do that.

Tammy 01:37
I mean, I think one thing I've learned about like, being a psychologist is that I can't remember what I was saying, I am having a day today.

Dez 01:49
Drink your drink. It helps.

Tammy 01:52

Okay.

Dez 01:55
You can always Uber to get your hair done. It's $6.

Tammy 02:01
If I don't know something, I just say I don't know.

Dez 02:04

Mm hmm.

Tammy 02:05
I'm just like, Oh, no. Figure it out.

Dez 02:08
I'll say, let me think about it, or I will get back to you. I've definitly I said like, I don't know, I'll get back to you.

Tammy 02:15

Yeah, I mean, that would be like an appropriate way to say it. But like, if a client asked me a question, I don't know the answer. I'm just like, I don't know. I'll find out. Yeah. It's a great question. And I don't know. So, because I remember like, when you first start, like when you're a baby, you're like, what if they asked me something that I don't know? And they're always the supervisor said, my supervisors. Just say you don't know. And I'm like, but aren't I supposed to know everything? And it's so like, I know that I don't need to know everything,you know? And I mean, I don't know.

Dez 02:50
Well, and like, really, you can't? You can't.

Tammy 02:55

Right, it's impossible.

Dez 02:59
This recording is going to be great.

Tammy 03:01
I know. Amazing. Um, well, I was listening to our last episode about like, emotional intelligence. And I was thinking, like, I hope people realize that this isn't about trying to, like, necessarily intuit your emotion from across the room. Yeah. And that's not what that is. But it's also saying like, something seems kind of off here.

Dez 03:25
It's it's reading the room and reading yourself. Right. Like, yeah, it's developing. I feel like emotional intelligence is very much an academic concept. When it comes down to person know thyself.

Tammy 03:39
Oh, yeah. But also, I think, I want to make sure that people didn't think we framed it up as it's a way of caretaking the other person or, or aware of making it. Bad news into good news. Like, it isn't that it's just recognizing, even if you don't know what it is, and you don't even have to yeah, because you can just be like, okay, so things seem to be going fine. And now it seems like something's off. What's up? Yeah, and just asked, like a good open ended question and just listen, yeah, it doesn't mean not giving bad news. For managers. That's just an unfortunate part of the job. Like, you're gonna have to do that. Right?

Dez 04:20
Well, and that's a part of emotional intelligence, like, I make a joke, like, know thyself know the situation. But that's the thing, like knowing what to expect. And being prepared for that, especially with negative situations and things that are hard to discuss, like, we're working on the book right now. And I'm on this part, where it's about like, giving and receiving feedback. And the thing is, is like our brains, like, humans, as a whole, respond more intensely to negative things than to positive things. Yeah.

Tammy 04:58
And or they just feel it more.

Dez 04:59
Mhmm, yeah. And so being aware of that, that element of quote, unquote, emotional intelligence, gives you space to kind of frame up the situation like with your manager, giving, maybe negative or constructive feedback, as the case may be, like, during

Tammy 05:19
Like, you're, like setting up a disciplinary action in motion, right?

Dez 05:25
Like, don't do it in front of the team and give someone space, like don't expect the person to respond in any sort of way, know that there response can be aggravation, it can be a negative thing, it could just be blank, and don't read much into that immediate response. You know, like, one thing that was so, so common at a previous job I had was, I wouldn't respond the way my supervisor wanted me to or expected. Um, and this individual read it as well, she doesn't care.

Tammy 06:08
Oh, so that's seeing something going on. And then deciding that, you know, yeah, so in the conversation where I said, hey, it's, it seems like things are off. What's up? That would be in lieu of? Well, obviously, she doesn't care because she did x. Right. Yeah. So it's noticing and noticing that something changed. And just asking about the change, because it also in an open ended way, because it provides space for the person to say, yeah, this is what happened, or this is what's going on.

Dez 06:39
This is what's going on, and giving them space to say, like, thanks for the feedback I'll think about it and process it. Can we like being prepared for you know, can we pick up this conversation? Or is there anything else that needs to be discussed today? I want to revisit this topic next week or something like that. Because the one thing that this former boss would do, would assume that I didn't care. And on a really good one time, it got to the point where it was just like, what do you want me to do? Do you want me to cry? And this person, like, slammed their hand on the desk and was like, yeah, show some fucking emotion. And then I started crying because it was a very intense situation.

Tammy 06:40
So emotion meant, show negative emotion.

Dez 07:27

Yes.

Tammy 07:27
Show more difficult emotion.

Dez 07:29
Okay, show that you care? Because I didn't care.

Tammy 07:34
How would you show that you care?

Dez 07:37
Right. Besides that, like, thanks for the feedback. I'll think about it. And we'll talk

Tammy 07:42
Well, some people are more stoic and reserved

Dez 07:44
Right? Especially like, if we think about where I was a time and stuff with work and grad school boundaries. And all of these things coming in from very much like eight years of the mental health field where work is work in one way, especially as like, line staff. Yeah. You know, like, I was still navigating the relational mental business, right, which we know we've talked about this, that's a whole other process in itself. Yeah, like understanding that. It's so weird, because mental health is a field unlike, I'm not going to say unlike any other like, I would assume maybe medicine is kind of similar social work, things like that. But like, the boundaries have to be like, painfully clear. You know, whereas with business, it's not. I don't want to say that mental health is an us versus them type of thing. Like it's not. It's different. And in business, even with your supervisor, and with clients and stuff, it's very much in both situations, you're working to have this common understanding. But in business, there's other other people aren't trained in boundaries.

Tammy 08:58
Not only that, but like, it's just different expectations. Like, I'm not going to sit and eat with a client. I'm not going to sit and have some wine with a client. I'm never going to do that. Because that's not appropriate. And it's not ethical. Yeah. But in business, you may go out to dinner, or you know what I mean? So it's,

Dez 09:18
That's kind of expected

Tammy 09:19
Right? So there's different expectations, it isn't an us versus them. I think, emotional intelligence bridges, both things in very different ways.

Dez 09:28

Yeah.

Tammy 09:30
And I, I'm glad you brought that up. Because I know that my perspective comes across as like, I'm a therapist, I'm a psychologist, and here's my ethics and boundaries. And that that doesn't necessarily map on to business, the concepts do, but the way they look in practice are different.

Dez 09:50
Well, I mean, it's almost a matter of identity. And my favorite topic. Role theory!!! You knew it was coming? You saw it coming! At work, you're a therapist, you're a psychologist. So with Masters level conditions, you have, like this set of expectations and boundaries with clients, you have another set of expectations and boundaries, as a podcasters, a content creator, as this other like entity. Yeah, you know, this other self. Learning what that looks like and navigating that like, I've been lucky or privileged enough, and that I've been more like the traditional business world, yeah, longer. So it's easier for me to blur those boundaries and come at it with a, like transparent authenticity. I know, like, we've been talking a bit about authenticity, I think vulnerability, we started podcasting. But um, like, it's easier for me to come into it and just be like, here's a situation. And those are waters that you're navigating. Yeah, you know, I think that was my big point was like, understanding and, like, so much of the work is done in the understanding and coming to the realization like, you're a psychologist and a podcaster. Yeah, you know, like, and,

Tammy 11:24
But there's ways I've even, like the ways that I put boundaries around that even now, right? So, like, I am still, to some degree keeping things a bit separated. Oh, yeah. But I also think like, that's not necessarily a bad thing. And like, one thing that I've always learned is, if
you start with your boundaries very tight, and you can always relax them, but if you start from a place of lacks, it's very hard to tighten them up. Right. So like, sometimes, self disclosure in therapy is essential, it's essential, it's beneficial for the client. But if you're just self disclosing everything in the beginning, then they think that maybe you have it just blurs the relationship, and are you really telling them for you? Are you telling them for them? Like, what's the motivation behind that, that's for another day. But you can start with that. And then if you feel like it would be therapeutic for the client to hear a specific thing, then you can choose to do that.

Dez 12:24
Mm hmm. And like, yeah, I mean, I would agree. And I think even with the podcast, and with how we develop the brand, even kind of tying it back to the what, what was actually an attitude and with where we are now, like, that's essentially been a loosening of boundaries. You know, it really has this, like, we're presenting ourselves in this one way. And now, we're three years later, we're coming into, it takes a long time. It does. We're doing an episode or I'll be doing episode with Dean kind of about, like, the brand itself. But like, that's one thing that I always just want to tell people, whenever they're like, I'm starting this blog, I'm starting this podcast, I'm starting this business. What, what do I do for branding and like, slow your role, take some time, you'll figure it out. You know, and I think like, I, I live in startup land, I live in small business world where that flexibility is essential. And there's still this element of fluidity about business anyway. Yeah. But boundaries, like so. Actually, I do do season three sugar and spikes, which is coming up in a couple weeks. So close. Um, that's been a loosening of boundaries. And there have been consistent boundaries that have stayed the same. You know, like neither of us has ever said, where we work, and neither of us really use our like, last name. Like neither of us, I recently started referring to my husband by his name, because he's been on the podcast.

Tammy 14:20
Well, and it feels, I don't know about you, but it's always feels weird to me to be like, this is label. Right? So like, a lot of parents, and this is how I most noticed is totally off topic. And then we'll go back, I promise. But like when people introduce themselves, you and like, Hey, I'm Jason's mom. I'm like, you have a name? Right? And that's the way they choose to do it. I'm not knocking them. But for me, it's almost like this co opting of your identity into this one label package where it's like, Hi, I'm Tammy. I'm X's mom, right? It's just different to me. It's different to me. And it might. I'm nuances, something that doesn't need to be nuanced. No, I'm a psychologist, I do that.

Dez 15:05
I mean, that's a conversation that happens a lot among moms. Like I'm not in mom Facebook groups. But I'm like, I'm a part of this skinny confidential Facebook group, which I don't remember how I got a part of it. But it's like, very much like a basic female Facebook group. So there are like, their moms in there. Like a lot of the topics around like momhood, weddings, and all the big lake traditionally feminine things that happen in their life. So little, little white girl basic mildly entertaining. It has its places, as everything does. All this is to say, I see mom posts come up a bit. That's a conversation that happens, like people are straight up like, do you say A.) I am so and so's mom? Or I'm insert name here. I'm so and so's mom. Or I like there are some that forget to even like mention their kids. And they're like, I'm so and so and I do x. And then someone's like, well, who's your kids? Like at birthdays and stuff? Like, well, which one's yours? Oh, little Joey over there. You know? Yeah, it's very much. I don't think there's one right or wrong way.

Tammy 15:20
So there isn't. Everyone has to figure out their own way. And so coming into that role coming into that identity and how you choose to incorporate that into role theory, and into all the other roles you have. So like, I wouldn't introduce myself as a doctor to say that I'm my kids, mom. Yeah. Like, I wouldn't do that. But to professional colleagues, I will.

Dez 16:36
Yeah. I mean, it's, it's what's appropriate at the time.

Tammy 16:40
Yeah. And I mean, some people really take comfort in like, joy in their identity as Joey's mom, which I think is great. And that speaks to everyone's experience is different. And there's no objective. There are some things but there's no objectively one right way. And so, some emotional intelligence around that is if somebody introduced me, to that to them. If they say Hi, I'm Joey's Mom, I don't then be like, I can't believe you don't introduce yourself with your name. I just go Oh, what was your name? You just ask nicely. Right? Like, be nice, be nice human. And so.

Dez 17:14
And like, pause. I also think, going back to this.

Tammy 17:18
Did I take us off the topic too much?

Dez 17:20
No, no, no. I was just like, that was a really good piece of also with the emotional intelligence thing. Like, if you see a mom at a birthday party that looks disheveled and is like, Oh, I'm so and so in, is like, out of breath when it's clear that like they forgot like, the last half of that sentence or something like, read the situation. Yeah. Have that emotional intelligence to have that gentleness and say, Oh, I don't think I caught it. Like, which kid was yours? You know, something like that. Versus? Excuse me?

Tammy 17:58

Yeah.

Dez 17:58
You know? Like I think having this underlying thought of, and I've really been challenging myself more about this. And I think I've been challenging you about it too.

Tammy 18:11

Probably.

Dez 18:11
I'm really holding true to this belief that everyone is doing the best they can. And people aren't acting out of like, maliciousness or laziness, or insert any negative connotation here, attribution theory. Yeah. And just really like trying to give space and then walking forward in an interaction with curiosity.

Tammy 18:37

Yep. And humility.

Dez 18:40
I think emotional intelligence aside, like, if that feels overwhelming, if it feels like something you can't develop, I'm not gonna challenge that.

Tammy 18:52
I would challenge that.

Dez 18:52
Well, yes. I mean, you can have, science says you can develop emotional intelligence. But if someone feels like that's too much to take on, then I'm not going to tell anyone to have a core belief of we're all doing the best we can. I would, I would hope people would think about that idea, and maybe consider something around that. But anyways, like, deciding this one like view or, you know, like, deciding how you view standard interactions, and then walking through it with that level of curiosity and openness, like staying curious, I

think is one of the things that can help save so many relationships, be a personal, professional, whatever it is, because being curious, when an interaction goes bad, like an interaction was bad, and a bridge is burnt, curiosity is what's going to rebuild it in any fashion, it may not be as strong as it was before. It may go. Like if the bridge went from point A to point B, it may go from point A to point C now, yeah, but that curiosity and that willingness to have that discussion, is going to start to lay the framework to keep that relationship, maybe not necessarily going, but it'll at least clear out the rubble. So they're like, the damage isn't left. I don't know,

Tammy 20:17
Well it's way of making repairs, right? And so now we get into the sticky kind of like, Are we going to keep going down this because it all leads to other really, for me, intriguing topics, right? And I recognize that the way I view the world and the way you view the world, which is very much the same. Some people don't connect with that, and that's fine. So how can you take the pieces that are valuable and leave the things that don't serve you? Yeah. And like I went to a training two weeks ago, and it was all about talking about how to more effectively engage kids who when they're like, melting down, or they're having like a really strong negative emotional reaction. And one of the core tenants is kids will do well, if they can, yes. And so if they aren't doing well, instead of thinking of it as a problem with motivation, this was the big piece I took away, taking it away from it as a problem of motivation, like, Oh, they just don't care. What can I say, to make them care? What can I say, to make them stop lying to me what like, it's not a problem of motivation. It's a problem of lagging skills. And so when we, like ask too much from kids, and their skills, can't get them there, then you start to see these kinds of very strong meltdowns, tantrums, emotional reactions, because what they're saying is, and this ties back to emotional intelligence, so we say things with words. And then there's the thing that we're saying, kind of beneath it. So the kid might be screaming at you and telling you what a horrible mom you are. And that's really hard to hold. And they're also saying, I cannot regulate my emotions right now. I don't have this capability. And I can't do it myself. So if you approach it that way, instead of thinking about what you're going to do to motivate them with tips and tricks, and all of that, it can be like, Okay, how can I help them learn to regulate their emotions so that when they have situations like this, that they can begin to respond in a in a way that's healthy? Because nobody wants to get in trouble. Even if you took it from kids and moved it to adults, I can't think of a single adult who's like, oh, yeah, I love getting a talking to at work. I love that, like, no one loves that.

Dez 22:42
I mean, I also can't think of an adult that would walk through something and be like, I'm going to ruin every relationship I have today.

Tammy 22:48
Right? You know, and so like, the thing is, is our behaviors are, I was saying this to someone the other day, our behaviors are complex. And they're motivated not just by our conscious thoughts, but our unconscious thoughts, too. And not even our thoughts, but messages that we've received and internalized and don't even realize it. And so like, I really believe I agree with you, nobody's out to like burn their life to the ground. So something is happening. Yeah. How do we help them?

Dez 23:21
Well, Mel Robbins talks about it in either a famous TED talk or a book, this concept is famous enough by her that I just know the concept. I don't know the origins order. But and this is in terms of like productivity, so I'm going to go down like a side trail really quick. But like, she says exactly that pretty much, no one wakes up saying, I don't want to throw today away. I sometimes do think something very, very similar, where I'm like, I wake up and I'm like, I'm not doing anything today. But but...

Tammy 23:56
Okay, go ahead. Nope, go for it.

Dez 23:59
But it's not not that I wake up like, I'm just going to waste today. Or that, like, the intention behind that is to do a self care today, because it's been so busy,

Tammy 24:09
Right. You're not burning your life to the ground just because.

Dez 24:13
Exactly. But she talks about in terms of like, these unconscious habits or lack of habits, to where, you know, we're not saying we want to throw our life away. But we're also like, a lot of society isn't waking up saying, I want this to be like the best day possible, and not really taking ownership of patterns of behavior and things like that.

Tammy 24:43
Well, is it going to be the best day? Like, I would kind of juxtapose that with, It's the best day possible versus the best day ever. Right? Like, I think we have this expectation that we set for ourselves that we always need to bring our A game. If you think about that, that's not even possible. It's not, it's just really nice, just not and so like, when I was reading something on, I forget where I read it. But I didn't come up with this myself. But I thought it was really brilliant. If somebody is having a really bad day, then you think about what something I could do and get accomplished that would make this day a win. It doesn't mean it'll fix everything. But be like, I accomplished that. Okay, the day didn't, you know, I kind of got it back on track as maybe like D level. And that's the win for today. Yeah, right. So like, I kind of have used this concept before. But without those words, like, if somebody's super depressed, and they are really having a hard time getting out of bed, you don't tell them to get and go out with their friends. They're like, well, what could you commit to? Maybe it's getting out of bed and downstairs into the living room, which is progress, which..

Dez 25:55
When you're just staying in bed, right?

Tammy 25:57
And so like, I think little things are more and more meaningful, then we give them credit for because we're taught in mainstream American culture kind of teaches this very much black or white, all or nothing. And I really believe that some of that comes from the way we have to teach children because they don't understand nuance, right? When, because kids aren't like just adults and little bodies, they are like, kids,

Dez 26:22
They are developmentally different.

Tammy 26:23
Right, yeah. And so like, you have to teach them these more concrete, black and white. So then when you get into adulthood, and everything's not black and white, and it all has nuance, it's like, oh, it can feel kind of overwhelming, because we're carrying that education with us all the time. And so building some self awareness and kind of recognizing, and adjusting and like, helping to reduce all or nothing black and white thinking, to think more flexibly is a really needed skill, not just for business, not just for anything with like for our own well being and mental health and like being able to set realistic expectations for ourselves.

Dez 27:08
Which really, I think just like put a bow on it ties back truly to emotional intelligence, of understanding the situation. And understanding your place in the situation. And not just like, like you're part of it well not just your apart, but also what you yourself are bringing that day. Oh, I got, you know, like having, because there's emotional understanding, I would say there's emotional intelligence for the external situation. There's also emotional intelligence for your own internal, like, well being, and just with what's going on, because I know that like for me, if if like, my boss came to me and said, Hey, I want to give you some feedback. And if like, my weekend had been really rough. And if I was really sick, like, I'd say, I'd say okay, and if like things weren't going well, I feel like I, were not great at predicting future behavior, but I think like, I would say something along the lines of like, I'm sorry, I don't know if like, now's the best time. I don't feel well. I'm really like, something like that. Like, if I were really sick. Like if I knew that I were in a place to not have that conversation. I think I would try. I would receive confirmation that I'm not in a place and then say that, you know? It's just like that. Do you know this? No, actually, I don't, but I can find out, right? So you're just labeling like, Hey, is there any way we can put it off? I'm really ill. I didn't get much sleep last night. And then let's say you had to go forward, I would hope, and it's not always true and I get that, that you could that when you did start to have some very strong reactions, you could be like, you know, I really apologize. I feel like my responses are just a little over the top right now due to my illness and lack of sleep. Because we all know, like, it's harder to modulate our feelings, when like, we're not taking when we're sick when we're tired when we're drained those time. And so you could say something like that, which helps to explain and make sense of what the person seeing in front of them. I don't know. No, I think I mean, that's key, right?

Tammy 29:36
But it goes back to what you said, right? And I think it's not always easy to do. But it may take some pressure off this idea that we have to be just like stoic mannequins all the time. And like we aren't human beings. You know what I mean? And so wait a minute, sorry.

Dez 29:55
I was like, wait, I just here.

Tammy 29:57

Yeah, you heard that.

Dez 29:59

We are not.

Tammy 29:59

It's a day.

Dez 30:00

Yeah.

Tammy 30:01
We're human beings. We're not mannequins and so like, we have these emotions and reactions as though we can't always be like the stoic, perfect people. Yeah. And so my hope would be that managers have enough emotional intelligence to understand that, and I know that's not always the case. And so you can make comments like this that help people understand it makes and make sense. Yeah.

Dez 30:23
Because like, when it comes down to it, we're all humans first, right? And then we're humans stepping into whatever role is being asked of us.

Tammy 30:35

Exactly.

Dez 30:36
So I would say, like for the coming week, working on developing a sense of awareness, whether or not its internal awareness, or, you know, looking at it, looking at situations and taking moments to take a step back and thinking, well, what's actually happening in the room could really shed some light on you know, situations that may be lingering problems or longstanding problems.

Tammy 31:06

So curiosity.

Dez 31:08

Exactly. Be curious.

Tammy 31:12
Because we're all doing the best we can.

Dez 31:14
And maybe we need to do better.

Tammy 31:16

Bye friends! Bye!